Perfectly, the following is Ken’s masterful research project towards bloodlines of Llewelyn Fawr and Joanna

Just ‘Ellen’s’ name remains a puzzle, truth be told there is apparently zero-one to entitled Ellen otherwise Helen, but perhaps an enthusiastic ‘Eleanor’ for the Joanna’s top (Eleanor out-of Aquitaine, mother of Joanna’s dad Queen John)

Hey, folk. It’s it’s fascinating; the things i won’t features made available to have access to this post twenty-five years in the past when i try researching and you can creating Right here Feel Dragons!

The main function of that it workout is to use, from the a peek at genealogist’s views on the subject and also by asking specific understood unique supply, to decide who had been mom out of Gwladus Ddu ferch Llywelyn. Is actually she Joanna, spouse of Llywelyn abdominal Iorwerth (Joan Plantagenet: Created circa.1188, died. February 1237) otherwise try she Tangwystl ferch Llyarch off Rhos, domme regarding Llywelyn, created circa. 1168, passed away??

I will follow this that have a secondary studies into the you’ll be able to lifestyle away from a good ded Susanna, considering over to Queen Henry 111 since the a beneficial hostage when you look at the 1228 together with her child custody are granted to Sir Nicholas Verdun along with his partner Clementia.

The viewpoints of the Genealogists that i keeps read are merely you to definitely, feedback, plus they differ considerably. No specific proof exists anyway, but i have to declare that almost all keep getting Gwladus as the new daughter off Joanna. This is especially valid of one’s genealogists of your own descendants out-of new De- Braose members of the family, nonetheless they ily as tied to both Welsh and you can English regal households!

The list following regarding Llywelyn’s numerous legitimate and you can illegitimate people https://kissbrides.com/brazilian-women/toledo/ seems to-be generally accepted by all of the genealogists that i has studied apart from variations more than whether or not #9 extremely resided. This new schedules of beginning here are debated because of the particular:

1. Gruffudd ap Llywelyn, produced circa.1199, died 1244
2. Gwladys Ddu ferch Llywelyn, born circa.1206, died 1251
3. Ellen (Helen, Elen) ferch Llywelyn, created circa 1206? died circa 1253,
4. Margred (Margaret) ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1208? passed away circa 1263,
5. Dafydd ap Llywelyn, Prince off Wales, produced circa 1208 (1211?) (doubts about this go out, discover afterwards), passed away twenty five February 1246,
6. Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1209 passed away 1281.
7. Angharad ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1210, passed away 1257
8. Tegwared ap Llywelyn – created circa 1210, you can easily dual so you can Angharad?
9. ‘Helen’, otherwise ‘Susanna’, created circa 1214? Passed away 1259?

There clearly was far dispute over the identity of parents away from these types of pupils. There was general arrangement that merely specific college students out of Llywelyn’s age Prince out-of Wales and you may Ellen (Helen) just who married (1) John this new Scot, son of the earl out of Chester and you may (2) Robert de- Quincy. Although viewpoint is split along the moms and dads regarding Gwladus, Gwenllian, Margred and you may Susanna, a lot of genealogists You will find analyzed lean towards their mom becoming Joanna.

It is partially making use of their going times off birth because the better as their marriages to several marcher lords whom, that supposes, might have sought for to help you make their homes to this of the neighbor, the latest Prince out-of Northern Wales with his partner, the fresh queen of England’s daughter. It’s thought that these lords of your February won’t have obtained plenty attract or governmental motivation into the marrying out of the sons for the illegitimate daughters regarding a Welsh prince with a good Welsh lady.

To what names ones youngsters, if or not because of the Joanna, Tangwystl otherwise anyone else, they were most of the entitled after members of Llywelyn’s friends:

Ken, our company is entirely on the debt

Llywelyn’s mommy are titled ‘ed ‘Susanna’ of Gwynedd. His paternal granny try named ‘Gwladus’. Mom and dad of his granny Susanna, was in fact ‘Gruffudd’ ap Cynan and ‘Angharad’ of Flint and you will both its labels were given to Llywelyn’s people. That it Susanna and additionally got a brother titled ‘Gwenllian’, an equivalent label since Llywelyn’s great grandmother.